From broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu Mon Jan 31 20:04:44 1994 Received: from neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.06) with SMTP id AA13038; Tue, 1 Feb 1994 01:05:25 -0500 Message-Id: <199402010605.AA13038@SunSITE.Unc.EDU> Received: by neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA15253; Tue, 1 Feb 94 01:04:44 -0500 From: Bill Broadley Subject: 21066 cpu info To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 01:04:44 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 6975 >From pitt.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!boulder!news!grunwald Mon Sep 13 17:40:11 1993 Path: pitt.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!boulder!news!grunwald From: grunwald@foobar.cs.colorado.edu (Dirk Grunwald) Newsgroups: comp.arch Subject: Re: DECchip 21066/68 Message-ID: Date: 12 Sep 93 17:34:36 GMT References: Sender: news@colorado.edu (The Daily Planet) Reply-To: grunwald@foobar.cs.colorado.edu Organization: University of Colorado at Boulder Lines: 184 In-Reply-To: monnier+@cs.cmu.edu's message of 12 Sep 93 13:59:52 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: foobar.cs.colorado.edu Never mind, just found this.. DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION FACT SHEET PRODUCT NAMES: DECchip 21066 166 MHz Microprocessor DECchip 21068 66 MHz Microprocessor OVERVIEW: The DECchip 21066 and DECchip 21068 microprocessors are highly integrated, high-speed microprocessors that implement Digital's Alpha AXP architecture. The new processors incorporate on-chip the industry-standard Peripheral Component Interface (PCI) bus as the primary I/O. In addition, key functions such as a memory controller, graphics accelerator, and phase-locked loop clock have been integrated into the design. Both microprocessors are pin compatible, .68 micron CMOS-based superscalar, superpipelined processors. The DECchip 21066 microprocessor brings the high performance of Digital's Alpha AXP 64-bit Reduced Instruction Set Computer (RISC) architecture to the Windows NT PC market. This 166 MHz processor provides Windows NT PC system vendors with the technology to deliver superior performance (estimated 70 SPECint92, 105 SPECfp92) at competitive market prices. The chip's high integration technology simplifies PC system design, reduces overall system cost, and provides access to industry-standard, off-the shelf peripherals. The DECchip 21068 microprocessor provides industrial single-board computer and high-end embedded application vendors with an estimated 70 Dhrystone MIPS at 66 MHz and only 8.5 Watts of power dissipation. Pin compatibility with the DECchip 21066 provides ample room for performance growth by extending the usefulness of software developed for DECchip 21068 microprocessors. Digital's competitive, high- performance Alpha AXP DEC 3000 workstations, combined with the CASE tool DEC FUSE, and the DECchip 21066/21068 Evaluation Board provide a native software development environment that will streamline the coding and debugging of software. DECCHIP 21066 Microprocessor o 166 MHz/330 MIPS peak operation o Estimated performance - 70 SPECint92 - 105 SPECfp92 - 175 V2.1 Dhrystone MIPS DECCHIP 21068 Microprocessor o 66 MHz/133 MIPS peak operation o Estimated performance - 30 SPECint92 - 50 SPECfp92 - 70 V2.1 Dhrystone MIPS KEY FEATURES: o Single-chip implementations o Very high integration - Integrated PCI I/O controller * Implements the industry standard 32-bit PCI bus * Provides high bandwidth and access to PCI peripheral devices * Provides investment protection for custom peripherals to migrate to future CPU designs - Integrated memory controller * Interfaces to a maximum 512 MB of industry standard DRAM SIMMs (single in-line memory modules) * Interfaces to VRAM (video RAM) * Integrated secondary cache controller controls up to 2MB of SRAM * Memory and cache are individually programmed for size, timing, and ECC - Integrated graphics accelerator * Provides graphics performance estimated at 30 million Winmarks - Integrated phase-locked loop clock * Provides the capability of using a low-cost, low-frequency oscillator * Permits easy design of systems operating at traditional frequencies of 25 MHz to 33 MHz o DECchip 21066 and DECchip 21068 use same core design used in the DECchip 21064, Digital's first implementation of the Alpha AXP architecture - 64-bit advanced RISC architecture - High performance provided by dual instruction issue and superpipelined design - Floating point unit supports both IEEE and VAX floating point instructions - 8K instruction cache and 8K data cache - CPU operates at 3.3 Volts and interfaces directly to 3.3-Volt or 5-Volt memory and logic o Privileged Architecture Library Code (PALcode) - Supports multiple operating systems including Windows NT, OSF/1, OpenVMS, and DECelx o Support for JTAG standards - Conforms to IEEE 1149.1 standard OPERATING CHARACTERISTICS: o Power Supply Vss 0.0 V, Vdd 3.3 V +/- 5% o Operating Temperature Tj max = 100 deg. C o Storage Temperature -55 deg. C to 125 deg. C o Power Dissipation 21 W maximum (DECchip 21066) 8.5 W maximum (DECchip 21068) o Frequency 166 MHz (DECchip 21066) 66 MHz (DECchip 21068) o Die Size 12.3 mm x 17.0 mm o Transistor Count 1.75 million o Package 287 pin PGA AVAILABILITY: Sample parts are available now. Volume quantities will be available in early 1994. PRICING: DECchip 21066-- $385 per unit in quantities of 5,000 DECchip 21068-- $221 per unit in quantities of 5,000. #### For further information, call Digital's DECchip Information Line: 1-800-DEC-2717 1-800-DEC-2515 (Telecommunications device for the hearing impaired, TDD) 508-568-6868 (Hudson, Mass. local number) Note to Editors: AXP, Alpha AXP, DECchip, DEC FUSE, the Digital logo, OpenVMS and VAX are trademarks of Digital Equipment Corporation. OSF/1 is a registered trademark of Open Software Foundation, Inc. Windows NT is a registered trademark of Microsoft Corporation. CORP/94/263a ============================================================================ DECnews for Press and Analysts is sent as a courtesy to members of the press, analyst and consulting community. For subscription information please contact: Russ Jones Digital Equipment Corporation Voice: 415-853-6566 FAX: 415-853-6537 Internet: decnews-pr@pa.dec.com All Digital press releases, fact sheets and backgrounders are archived on gatekeeper.dec.com in the /pub/DEC/DECinfo/DECnews-PR directory. ============================================================================ From broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu Mon Jan 31 20:04:33 1994 Received: from neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.06) with SMTP id AA13012; Tue, 1 Feb 1994 01:05:14 -0500 Message-Id: <199402010605.AA13012@SunSITE.Unc.EDU> Received: by neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA15248; Tue, 1 Feb 94 01:04:33 -0500 From: Bill Broadley Subject: 21066 evaluation board info To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 01:04:33 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 3221 DECchip 21066/21068 Evaluation Board Product Brief Sept 1993 [My commends in ] Evaluation board (EB66) baby AT size o 21066 at 150 or 166 Mhz, or 21068 at 66 Mhz. A serial rom boots cpu at reset. [wonder if the 21066-150 is much cheaper?] o Dram 64 bit wide + 8 bit ECC. Supports 8,16,32,64,128, or 256 MB's [quite flexible, couldn't ask for more here.] o L2 cache supports 2 32x8 + 8 32kx9 (256k) or 2 128kx8 + 8 128kx9 (1MB) [ 32kx8 15ns (probably faster then needed) are $8.50 in computer shopper. 10*8.50 is $85 for 256k. If we do 10 boards (100 chips) I'm sure this would be cheaper ] o 1 dedicated pci slot + 1 PCI+ISA slot at 25 or 33 Mhz on board pci connections for scsi, ethernet, and PCI to ISA bridge [less slots then expected] o 2 ISA slots (8 and 16 bit dma) + 1 shared isa + pci slot, and isa connections for the below: [this means we NEED isa] Floppy controll, 2 uarts, parallel, and interupt drive hardware timer. -Mouse/keyboard controller -2 UVPROMS for debug, one preprogrammed by digital, the other us user programable. o Frame buffer connectors (2) physically in lne with one ISA expansion slot provides basis for high speed video frame buffer design. [ NO video Seems like we could make a really simple board with just 2 MB vram, and a ramdac that would make this board very nice, not as cheap as on the motherboard though. I assume it uses the 21066's video support. How much are CHEAP pci video boards???] o Latches, buffers, glue logic, power regulators, decoupling capacitors, and other necessary components, as needed to form a complete system. [ seems like this is minimal/cheap] o Database and user docs-- The full database including schematics and source files, are supplied with the EB66. User documentation is also included. The database allows designers with no previous Alpha AXP experience to successfully create a working axp system with minimal help. [Sounds like we NEED this] Parts used: SCSI NCR 53C810 PCI to SCSI controller. [Good chip] Ethernet controller Dec 21040 [?? Anyone know this? Any current support? ] PCI to ISA bridge 82378IB PCI to ISA bridge supports concurent operation of ISA and PCI National PC87312 provides interface to diskette, 1 parallel port, 2 serial devices. [ Anyone familiar with this?] Intel 8242 controls input from mouse and keyboard [Sounds like a pc part] DS1287A for time of year clock 2 debug monitor UVPROM 512 KB. One is preprogrammed by dec's application support group. The other is user programmable. Debug monitor allows the design engineer to develop code on a host system and load it into the EB66 though an ethernet port using bootp protocol or through a serial port. [Above is probably main reason we need source/docs for the board to work] The paper mentions "Supporting Documentations and Software Tools" that are including: User docs Sources for Srom, debug rom, example privileged architecture library code (PALcode) Source develoment tools for NT and OSF/1 platforms Circuit schematics Board artwork Circuit design database compatible with viewlogic powerview 5.1 Able and JEDEC filees for PLD's Hardware design application notes. From broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu Mon Jan 31 20:04:21 1994 Received: from neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.06) with SMTP id AA12996; Tue, 1 Feb 1994 01:05:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199402010605.AA12996@SunSITE.Unc.EDU> Received: by neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA15242; Tue, 1 Feb 94 01:04:21 -0500 From: Bill Broadley Subject: 21066 evaluation board summary To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 01:04:21 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1435 Okay I went closely over the parts lists. I can field any parts questions not answered by the documentation. I'll post details on the evaluation board and the 21066 next. Here are my observations (sorry nothing mailed out yet). First: Only 2 PCI slots. Can't kill ISA without major redesign. NO VIDEO L2 cache 256 k looks like the minimum setup. Worst case $85.00 Second: It looks like we need the "EB66 Supporting Documentation and Software tools to make this pratical." Somebody mentioned either to the list or private email that their company is considering buying the EB66 board. If they did that and we could get a copy of the online documentation, cad files, PAL source code etc we would have a chance. Getting this online stuff seems to be the FIRST step. This could also save me a substantial post office bill ;-) Without it even if we managed to turn the 45 pages of schematic into a working motherboard getting it to boot and make use of the PAL code without source/documentation would probably be impossible. But on the otherhand if we do get the documentation I believe the board will run OSF/1 and Win NT (till we get linux ported). This could also dramatically increase the market for the baord. I'll ping my dec contact and see if we can get the online stuff or at least a price for it. Please do the same if you have any contacts. Even a tiny bit of support from dec could make a big difference. From antsu@sandra.pp.fi Tue Feb 1 12:18:50 1994 Received: from eunet.fi by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.06) with SMTP id AA07422; Tue, 1 Feb 1994 12:18:50 -0500 Received: from sandra.pp.fi by eunet.fi with UUCP id AA06442 (5.65c+l/IDA-1.4.4 for sunsite.unc.edu!riscy); Tue, 1 Feb 1994 19:18:23 +0200 Received: by sandra.pp.fi (/\==/\ Smail3.1.24.1 #24.3) id ; Tue, 1 Feb 94 18:45 EET Message-Id: Date: Tue, 1 Feb 94 18:45 EET From: antsu@sandra.pp.fi (Antti-Pekka Virtanen) To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Subject: Design Kit... Hi! I just heard that the Software design kit contains also the "Firmware source" for the eval. board. I just don't know how we can use the kit since it needs an Alpha system with NT (or DEC 3000, with OSF/1) as a platform to use the tools. The people at DEC are trying to figure out in what form the things are... But hope they can tell us soon, Antti-Pekka -- Antti-Pekka Virtanen E-mail: antsu@sandra.pp.fi Arholankuja 3 a 21 Packet: OH1YF@OH1RBU.TKU.FIN.EU FIN-21100 Naantali Finland Tel. : Intl.+358 21 751888 At the University of Turku : antsu@utu.fi BSD/386 Software Archives : antsu@nic.funet.fi "If the human brain were so simple that we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't." From antsu@sandra.pp.fi Tue Feb 1 12:20:07 1994 Received: from eunet.fi by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.06) with SMTP id AA07633; Tue, 1 Feb 1994 12:20:07 -0500 Received: from sandra.pp.fi by eunet.fi with UUCP id AA06457 (5.65c+l/IDA-1.4.4 for sunsite.unc.edu!riscy); Tue, 1 Feb 1994 19:18:38 +0200 Received: by sandra.pp.fi (/\==/\ Smail3.1.24.1 #24.3) id ; Tue, 1 Feb 94 19:13 EET Message-Id: Date: Tue, 1 Feb 94 19:13 EET From: antsu@sandra.pp.fi (Antti-Pekka Virtanen) To: broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu, riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Subject: Re: 21066 evaluation board summary In-Reply-To: Mail from 'Bill Broadley ' dated: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 01:48:53 -0500 > But on the otherhand if we do get the documentation I believe the board > will run OSF/1 and Win NT (till we get linux ported). This could > also dramatically increase the market for the baord. Yes, this is a must! Starting from scratch means we will not have a fully working board when the 21066 is used in telephone answering machines... :) > I'll ping my dec contact and see if we can get the online stuff or at > least a price for it. Please do the same if you have any contacts. > > Even a tiny bit of support from dec could make a big difference. Yes, I have an exact price for that: 21A03-11 21066/68 Design Kit (software) $50 (converted from FIM 300,-) It's not so much when thinking of what it contains. If this beast is available in the net.somewhere, I'd be very happy to get it ASAP. Wishes, Antti-Pekka -- Antti-Pekka Virtanen E-mail: antsu@sandra.pp.fi Arholankuja 3 a 21 Packet: OH1YF@OH1RBU.TKU.FIN.EU FIN-21100 Naantali Finland Tel. : Intl.+358 21 751888 At the University of Turku : antsu@utu.fi BSD/386 Software Archives : antsu@nic.funet.fi "If the human brain were so simple that we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't." From antsu@sandra.pp.fi Tue Feb 1 12:20:01 1994 Received: from eunet.fi by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.06) with SMTP id AA07614; Tue, 1 Feb 1994 12:20:01 -0500 Received: from sandra.pp.fi by eunet.fi with UUCP id AA06448 (5.65c+l/IDA-1.4.4 for sunsite.unc.edu!riscy); Tue, 1 Feb 1994 19:18:30 +0200 Received: by sandra.pp.fi (/\==/\ Smail3.1.24.1 #24.3) id ; Tue, 1 Feb 94 19:08 EET Message-Id: Date: Tue, 1 Feb 94 19:08 EET From: antsu@sandra.pp.fi (Antti-Pekka Virtanen) To: broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu, riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Subject: Re: 21066 evaluation board info In-Reply-To: Mail from 'Bill Broadley ' dated: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 01:40:50 -0500 > The paper mentions "Supporting Documentations and Software Tools" > that are including: We NEED this!! At it doesn't cost more than that $50... > User docs > Sources for Srom, debug rom, example privileged architecture > library code (PALcode) Great! > Source develoment tools for NT and OSF/1 platforms > Circuit schematics > Board artwork > Circuit design database compatible with viewlogic powerview 5.1 YES , OH YES !!!!! Just what I hoped it would contain! > Able and JEDEC filees for PLD's > Hardware design application notes. Now the only question remains: How can we extract the design documents from the rest of the tools ? Do you know what media it comes on ? Maybe CD-ROM that one can easilly mount on any decent *ix machine ? Greetings, Antti-Pekka P.S. I think the way to do the pcb is to DIRECTLY use the DEC provided board artwork. It would make life much easier... and then concentrate on the software / OS. -- Antti-Pekka Virtanen E-mail: antsu@sandra.pp.fi Arholankuja 3 a 21 Packet: OH1YF@OH1RBU.TKU.FIN.EU FIN-21100 Naantali Finland Tel. : Intl.+358 21 751888 At the University of Turku : antsu@utu.fi BSD/386 Software Archives : antsu@nic.funet.fi "If the human brain were so simple that we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't." From hp@gipsy.vmars.tuwien.ac.at Tue Feb 1 13:22:19 1994 Received: from gipsy.vmars.tuwien.ac.at by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.06) with SMTP id AA19002; Tue, 1 Feb 1994 13:22:19 -0500 Received: by gipsy.vmars.tuwien.ac.at id AA04886 (5.64+/IDA-1.3.4 for riscy@sunsite.unc.edu); Tue, 1 Feb 94 19:21:42 +0100 From: Peter Holzer Message-Id: <9402011821.AA04886@gipsy.vmars.tuwien.ac.at> Subject: Re: Design Kit... To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Date: Tue, 1 Feb 94 19:21:40 MET In-Reply-To: ; from "Antti-Pekka Virtanen" at Feb 1, 94 12:55 pm Reply-To: hp@vmars.vmars.tuwien.ac.at X-Return-Receipt-To: hp@vmars.tuwien.ac.at X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL5] You (Antti-Pekka Virtanen) wrote: > > I just heard that the Software design kit contains also the "Firmware source" > for the eval. board. I just don't know how we can use the kit since it needs > an Alpha system with NT (or DEC 3000, with OSF/1) as a platform to use the > tools. The people at DEC are trying to figure out in what form the things > are... We will get two Alphas (with OSF/1) next month. So I could at least have a look at them. I cannot promise to do any serious work, however, since I probably won't have enough time and don't have any hardware experience. hp -- _ | hp@vmars.tuwien.ac.at | Peter Holzer | TU Vienna | CS/Real-Time Systems |_|_) |------------------------------------------------------------------------ | | | Das ist alles sehr kompliziert. __/ | -- Dr. Fred Sinowatz, Ex-Bundeskanzler From af4@ukc.ac.uk Tue Feb 1 19:02:20 1994 Received: from sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.06) with SMTP id AA06121; Tue, 1 Feb 1994 15:13:06 -0500 Message-Id: <199402012013.AA06121@SunSITE.Unc.EDU> Via: uk.ac.ukc; Tue, 1 Feb 1994 19:02:34 +0000 Received: from eagle by mercury.ukc.ac.uk with UKC POP3+ id aa20911; 1 Feb 94 19:02 GMT Date: Tue, 1 Feb 94 19:02:20 GMT From: Cover Thief To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Subject: Re: 21066 evaluation board summary Bill Broadley writes: >First: > Only 2 PCI slots. Is this a problem? The scsi and ether controllers are on board and there is a separate connector for a video card, so all of the high bandwidth ports are taken care of. > Can't kill ISA without major redesign. Some will see this as a benefit. > NO VIDEO It seems logical that the video port provides connections for the CPU's built-in video hardware, so it should be easy to cook up a VRAM + RAMDAC to plug in. The DEC evaluation board sounds about as ideally suited to our needs as we are likely to get. I want one 8-) From pat@wesson.it.com.au Wed Feb 2 22:57:56 1994 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.06) with SMTP id AA05492; Wed, 2 Feb 1994 04:41:40 -0500 Received: from wesson.it.com.au by joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU (mail from pat for riscy@sunsite.unc.edu) with MHSnet (insertion MHSnet site: garion.it.com.au); Wed, 02 Feb 1994 20:41:35 +1100 Received: from wesson by garion.it.com.au with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0pRe4S-0000Zu5; Wed, 2 Feb 94 17:40 WST Message-Id: From: pat@wesson.it.com.au (Pat Mackinlay) Subject: Re: 21066 evaluation board summary To: af4@ukc.ac.uk Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 14:57:56 +0800 (WST) Cc: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu In-Reply-To: <199402012013.AA06121@SunSITE.Unc.EDU> from "Cover Thief" at Feb 1, 94 03:18:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 900 > It seems logical that the video port provides connections for the CPU's > built-in video hardware, so it should be easy to cook up a VRAM + RAMDAC > to plug in. I'm still unsure as to exactly what's going on here. As far as I know, the 21066/68 do *not* have onboard video sync or signal generation. From what I've read, the "video support" is essentially some bit twiddling (packing and rotation) to make access to a framebuffer faster. The other point I'm a little worried about is the fact that these chips want ECC on their memory. If it's a 32 bit memory + 8 bit ECC, doesn't that mean we need "special" SIMMs, rather than the more common 36 bit PC SIMMs? Perhaps I'm wrong here also and there is extra ECC memory configured into the system (not necessarily in the SIMMs)? Can someone who has information please tell us exactly what the story is? -- pat -- empty space is wasted space. From gt@prosun.first.gmd.de Wed Feb 2 15:48:47 1994 Received: from prosun.first.gmd.de by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.06) with SMTP id AA19330; Wed, 2 Feb 1994 08:50:51 -0500 Received: from gs2.gmd.de (gs2.first.gmd.de) by prosun.first.gmd.de (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03713; Wed, 2 Feb 94 14:49:12 +0100 From: gt@prosun.first.gmd.de (Gerd Truschinski) Message-Id: <9402021349.AA03713@prosun.first.gmd.de> Subject: Re: 21066 board (was Wild idea) To: riscy@SunSITE.Unc.EDU Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 14:48:47 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 934 >hodgen@mailhost.uni-koblenz.de writes: > >>So long as decent audio is on the board and ethernet PCI cards aren't >>incredibly expensive, go ahead, kill the ISA. If person X wants to add card >>Y, where is he going to put it? By everything I mean the basics that >>everyone needs. Serial, parallel, video, SCSI. There is going to be >>a lot of discussion about _what_ video and if SCSI is needed (there were >>the last time). There will be lots of shouts for Ethernet on the board (I > >Well video is handled by the CPU so the only things to argue about here >are the amount of VRAM and choice of RAMDAC. As for SCSI, Drew Eckhart >is in favour of a rather fast NCR PCI SCSI controller for which he has >written a driver. I see no reason for not going along with this unless >the NCR chip is particularly expensive. We bought a PCI NCR810 board for about 100$ + taxes(or less) two weeks ago. So, the price is not the problem. /gT/ From antsu@sandra.pp.fi Wed Feb 2 09:37:28 1994 Received: from eunet.fi by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.06) with SMTP id AA24354; Wed, 2 Feb 1994 09:37:28 -0500 Received: from sandra.pp.fi by eunet.fi with UUCP id AA02626 (5.65c+l/IDA-1.4.4 for sunsite.unc.edu!riscy); Wed, 2 Feb 1994 16:36:39 +0200 Received: by sandra.pp.fi (/\==/\ Smail3.1.24.1 #24.3) id ; Wed, 2 Feb 94 16:33 EET Message-Id: Date: Wed, 2 Feb 94 16:33 EET From: antsu@sandra.pp.fi (Antti-Pekka Virtanen) To: af4@ukc.ac.uk, riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Subject: Re: 21066 evaluation board summary In-Reply-To: Mail from 'Cover Thief ' dated: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 15:14:41 -0500 > It seems logical that the video port provides connections for the CPU's > built-in video hardware, so it should be easy to cook up a VRAM + RAMDAC > to plug in. Yes, and there are some who don't want video at all... (?) > The DEC evaluation board sounds about as ideally suited to our needs as > we are likely to get. I want one 8-) Yes. This is exactly what we think to do. Total redesign is not worth it since in that case everyone would want something different than the others... and we wouldn't get anywhere. As soon as I can get the design documents I can do queries about the pcb manufacturing. Also, we might be able to provide assembly of the boards, to make life easier for the software people :) In any case, I think the CPU and other costly components should be bought in USA or other country than Finland, since they are not so cheap here... Maybe DEC could give us a couple of samples ? :) Also, the DEC 21040 ethernet chip availability is something I am concerned with. Would anyone out there take care about the component queries after we have gotten a full parts list ? (Well, I have a price for the Intel S82378IB ... about US $36, so I guess the CPU and RAM (cache, video and dram) will be the most expensive ones and then maybe the NCR SCSI...) But, let's start calculating... Wishes, Antti-Pekka -- Antti-Pekka Virtanen E-mail: antsu@sandra.pp.fi Arholankuja 3 a 21 Packet: OH1YF@OH1RBU.TKU.FIN.EU FIN-21100 Naantali Finland Tel. : Intl.+358 21 751888 At the University of Turku : antsu@utu.fi BSD/386 Software Archives : antsu@nic.funet.fi "If the human brain were so simple that we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't." From drew@kinglear.cs.Colorado.EDU Wed Feb 2 11:22:02 1994 Received: from kinglear.cs.colorado.edu by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.06) with SMTP id AA06125; Wed, 2 Feb 1994 20:24:09 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kinglear.cs.Colorado.EDU (8.6.4/8.6.4) with SMTP id SAA07401; Wed, 2 Feb 1994 18:22:04 -0700 Message-Id: <199402030122.SAA07401@kinglear.cs.Colorado.EDU> X-Authentication-Warning: kinglear.cs.Colorado.EDU: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: pat@wesson.it.com.au, riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Subject: Re: 21066 evaluation board summary In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 Feb 1994 17:27:26 EST." Date: Wed, 02 Feb 1994 18:22:02 -0700 From: Drew Eckhardt -------- The other point I'm a little worried about is the fact that these chips want ECC on their memory. If it's a 32 bit memory + 8 bit ECC, doesn't that mean we need "special" SIMMs, rather than the more common 36 bit PC SIMMs? Perhaps I'm wrong here also and there is extra ECC memory configured into the system (not necessarily in the SIMMs)? 1. Memory is 64 bits wide 2. With 64 bit wide memory, you need 8 bits for SECDED (Single bit Error Correction, Double bit Error Dedection) 3. 64 data bits + 8 ECC bits = 72 bits = 2 x 36 bit memories No problem - it's no more expensive in terms of memory than one parity bit per byte, and will correct one bit errors instead of halting. From vigeant@pa.dec.com Sat Feb 5 03:36:34 1994 Received: from inet-gw-2.pa.dec.com by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP id AA19204; Sat, 5 Feb 1994 14:44:03 -0500 Received: from tenacity.pa.dec.com by inet-gw-2.pa.dec.com (5.65/13Jan94) id AA00751; Sat, 5 Feb 94 11:36:35 -0800 Received: by tenacity.pa.dec.com; id AA21156; Sat, 5 Feb 1994 11:36:34 -0800 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 1994 11:36:34 -0800 From: vigeant@pa.dec.com (Wayne Vigeant) Message-Id: <9402051936.AA21156@tenacity.pa.dec.com> To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Subject: Lost Mail We experienced a problem on Wednesday, Feb 2, 1994 which caused some mail messages to be lost. If you sent any messages through our gateway between 2 AM PST and 4 PM PST on Wednesday, Feb 2, 1994 they may have been lost. Please resend your messages if you are unsure about their delivery. We apologize for the inconvenience. Wayne Vigeant (postmaster@dec.com) From antsu@sandra.pp.fi Sun Feb 13 (:41:09 1994 Received: from eunet.fi by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP id AA10951; Mon, 14 Feb 1994 09:45:12 -0500 Received: from sandra.pp.fi by eunet.fi with UUCP id AA06876 (5.65c+l/IDA-1.4.4 for sunsite.unc.edu!riscy); Mon, 14 Feb 1994 16:44:58 +0200 Received: by sandra.pp.fi (/\==/\ Smail3.1.24.1 #24.3) id ; Mon, 14 Feb 94 16:39 EET Message-Id: From: antsu@sandra.pp.fi (Antti-Pekka Virtanen) Subject: Archive site To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 16:39:09 -40962758 (EET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 701 Hi! I will be making an archive directory for Alpha stuff in ftp.funet.fi:/pub/misc/alpha where I will be putting all the stuff that is uploaded to ftp.funet.fi:/pub/misc/alpha/incoming All mail considering the archive should be sent to me at: antsu@nic.funet.fi Best Regards, Antti-Pekka Antti-Pekka Virtanen E-mail: antsu@sandra.pp.fi Arholankuja 3 a 21 Packet: OH1YF@OH1RBU.TKU.FIN.EU FIN-21100 Naantali Finland Tel. : Intl.+358 21 751888 At the University of Turku : antsu@utu.fi BSD/386 Software Archives : antsu@nic.funet.fi "If the human brain were so simple that we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't." From sph@ihlpe.att.com Tue Feb 15 00:27:00 1994 Received: from gw1.att.com by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP id AA00931; Tue, 15 Feb 1994 07:41:56 -0500 Message-Id: <199402151241.AA00931@SunSITE.Unc.EDU> From: sph@ihlpe.att.com Date: Tue, 15 Feb 94 06:27 CST Original-From: ihlpe!sph (Stephen P Hill +1 708 979 0366) To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Subject: Re: Archive site Hi: First I want to voice support for the ALPHA-riscy project, then second I want to ask how I can get this mailing address off the list? I have changed mailing addresses and cannot automatically unsubscribe. E-mail to the addr listed for help, "caret@c-side.com", has not generated any response in the last couple of months. I have subscribed from my new mailing addr and only want "sph@ihlpe.ih.att.com" removed. Thanks Stephen P. Hill sph@uscbu.ih.att.com From tthorn%hof@hof.daimi.aau.dk Wed Feb 16 07:11:11 1994 Received: from hof (hof.daimi.aau.dk) by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP id AA20787; Wed, 16 Feb 1994 07:11:11 -0500 Received: by hof (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #14) id m0pWl6v-000IBpC; Wed, 16 Feb 94 13:12 MET Message-Id: Date: Wed, 16 Feb 94 13:12 MET From: tthorn%hof@hof.daimi.aau.dk (Tommy Thorn) To: antsu@sandra.pp.fi Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Archive site In-Reply-To: References: Reply-To: Tommy.Thorn@daimi.aau.dk Antti-Pekka Virtanen writes: > Hi! > > I will be making an archive directory for Alpha stuff in > > ftp.funet.fi:/pub/misc/alpha > > where I will be putting all the stuff that is uploaded to > ftp.funet.fi:/pub/misc/alpha/incoming > > All mail considering the archive should be sent to me at: antsu@nic.funet.fi Thank you for a very good initiative. Make good decisions is all about having the right information. I've read though most of what's archived there and must say that by now I'm fully converted from MIPS. Is it possible to get the a fully assembled EB66 from DEC, and if, at what price? I'm a little confused as to what is included on the EB66. For the Product Brief: "PC local bus interface running at 25 to 33 MHz is brought out to one dedicated onboard PCI expansion slot for additional I/O devices. A second PCI slot is shared with the ISA bus. Connects to the following onboard PCI ships: ^^^^^^^ - SCSI controller - Ethernet controller - PCI to ISA bridge" So, SCSI and Ethernet is onboard.(?) "Frame buffer connector (2) physically in line with one ISA expansion slot provides a basis for a high-speed video frame buffer design." So, full video is not onboard, but requires some unspecified (undeveloped?) ISA video card. Is this correctly understood? /Tommy From af4@ukc.ac.uk Wed Feb 16 14:15:42 1994 Received: from mercury.ukc.ac.uk by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP id AA08030; Wed, 16 Feb 1994 10:08:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199402161508.AA08030@SunSITE.Unc.EDU> Received: from eagle by mercury.ukc.ac.uk with UKC POP3+ id aa21250; 16 Feb 94 14:15 GMT Date: Wed, 16 Feb 94 14:15:42 GMT From: Cover Thief To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Subject: Re: Archive site tthorn <@hof.daimi.aau.dk:tthorn@hof> writes: >I'm a little confused as to what is included on the EB66. For the >Product Brief: > > "PC local bus interface running at 25 to 33 MHz is brought out to > one dedicated onboard PCI expansion slot for additional I/O devices. > A second PCI slot is shared with the ISA bus. Connects to the > following onboard PCI ships: > ^^^^^^^ > - SCSI controller > - Ethernet controller > - PCI to ISA bridge" > >So, SCSI and Ethernet is onboard.(?) Yes, and very nice controllers they are too. > "Frame buffer connector (2) physically in line with one ISA expansion > slot provides a basis for a high-speed video frame buffer design." > >So, full video is not onboard, but requires some unspecified >(undeveloped?) ISA video card. The on-board video support is minimal. The CPU memory controller does however provide a mechanism for loading the shift register of a bank of video memories (VRAMs). A dumb frame buffer would require a modest amount of timing logic (to tell the memory controller when to load the VRAM shift register), a RAMDAC and the VRAMs themselves. The other alternative is to plug in a PCI video card. Andy. From rm@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at Wed Feb 16 18:25:46 1994 Received: from eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP id AA19925; Wed, 16 Feb 1994 11:25:42 -0500 Received: by eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA26163; Wed, 16 Feb 1994 17:25:47 +0100 From: rm@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at (Ralf Messerer) Message-Id: <9402161625.AA26163@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at> Subject: DECchip prices To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 17:25:46 +0100 (MEZ) Reply-To: rm@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 574 DECchip 21066 Alpha AXP Microporcessor (Order Number 21066-AA): qty 1-24 25-99 >100 price 704$ 633$ 528$ DECchip 21040 LAN (Order Number 21040-AA): qty 1-24 25-99 >100 price 42$ 38$ 31$ greetings, Ralf -- Ralf Messerer Internet: messerer@email.tuwien.ac.at Computer Center forwarded to: rm@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at Vienna University of Technology Wiedner Hauptstrasse 8-10 Voice: +58 801/5505 A-1040 Vienna, Austria/Europe Fax: +58 74 211 From broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu Thu Feb 17 09:48:11 1994 Received: from neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP id AA01657; Thu, 17 Feb 1994 14:48:17 -0500 Message-Id: <199402171948.AA01657@SunSITE.Unc.EDU> Received: by neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA04841; Thu, 17 Feb 94 14:48:11 -0500 From: Bill Broadley Subject: DECchip prices (fwd) To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 14:48:11 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1004 Forwarded message: >From riscy@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Thu Feb 17 14:43 EST 1994 Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 14:41:07 -0500 Message-Id: <9402161625.AA26163@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at> Errors-To: caret@c-side.com Reply-To: rm@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at Originator: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Sender: riscy@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Precedence: bulk From: rm@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at (Ralf Messerer) To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: DECchip prices X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0a -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas >DECchip 21066 Alpha AXP Microporcessor (Order Number 21066-AA): >qty 1-24 25-99 >100 >price 704$ 633$ 528$ Hmmm seems high. Is this the 200, 166 or 150 Mhz version? >DECchip 21040 LAN (Order Number 21040-AA): > qty 1-24 25-99 >100 >price 42$ 38$ 31$ Sounds good. -- Bill Broadley@{neurocog,schneider3,lrdc5}.lrdc.pitt.edu (in order of preference) Linux is great. Bike to live, live to bike. PGP-ok From rm@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at Fri Feb 18 14:28:32 1994 Received: from eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP id AA22449; Fri, 18 Feb 1994 07:28:13 -0500 Received: by eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA14421; Fri, 18 Feb 1994 13:28:33 +0100 From: rm@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at (Ralf Messerer) Message-Id: <9402181228.AA14421@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at> Subject: cheap 21066 Noname Board To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 13:28:32 +0100 (MEZ) Reply-To: rm@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 635 DEC will bring out a NoName Borad for OEM. The price will be under 500$. DEC will start with the first samples in May and volume quantities in June. The board have the same features like evaluation board, but there is no Ehternetcotroller 21040. I think we will not be able to build a board so cheap. greetings, Ralf -- Ralf Messerer Internet: messerer@email.tuwien.ac.at Computer Center forwarded to: rm@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at Vienna University of Technology Wiedner Hauptstrasse 8-10 Voice: +58 801/5505 A-1040 Vienna, Austria/Europe Fax: +58 74 211 From sweeney@dionheinz.uchicago.edu Fri Feb 18 02:20:53 1994 Received: from dionheinz.uchicago.edu by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP id AA03069; Fri, 18 Feb 1994 09:12:30 -0500 Received: from localhost (sweeney@localhost) by dionheinz.uchicago.edu (8.6.4/8.6.4) id IAA14088; Fri, 18 Feb 1994 08:20:53 -0600 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 08:20:53 -0600 From: Jeff Sweeney Message-Id: <199402181420.IAA14088@dionheinz.uchicago.edu> To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu In-Reply-To: Ralf Messerer's message of Fri, 18 Feb 1994 07:34:15 -0500 <9402181228.AA14421@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at> Subject: cheap 21066 Noname Board > DEC will bring out a NoName Board for OEM. The price will be > under 500$...greetings, Ralf Will DEC sell the boards to us in small quantities? We are not an OEM. Jeff sweeney@dionheinz.uchicago.edu From rm@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at Fri Feb 18 19:33:59 1994 Received: from eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP id AA03960; Fri, 18 Feb 1994 12:33:55 -0500 Received: by eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA16923; Fri, 18 Feb 1994 18:33:59 +0100 From: rm@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at (Ralf Messerer) Message-Id: <9402181733.AA16923@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at> Subject: PCB price To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 18:33:59 +0100 (MEZ) Reply-To: rm@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 435 Can somebody ask the price for making a PCB in the USA ? size: 220mm x 330mm layers: 4 (6) holes: ca. 3000 Thanks -- Ralf Messerer Internet: messerer@email.tuwien.ac.at Computer Center forwarded to: rm@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at Vienna University of Technology Wiedner Hauptstrasse 8-10 Voice: +58 801/5505 A-1040 Vienna, Austria/Europe Fax: +58 74 211 From rm@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at Fri Feb 18 19:30:25 1994 Received: from eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP id AA04572; Fri, 18 Feb 1994 12:37:34 -0500 Received: by eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA12565; Fri, 18 Feb 1994 18:30:25 +0100 From: rm@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at (Ralf Messerer) Message-Id: <9402181730.AA12565@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at> Subject: AXP 21068 price To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 18:30:25 +0100 (MEZ) Reply-To: rm@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 403 Today I got the price for the AXP 21068. qty 1-25 25-99 >100 21068 404$ 364$ 303$ -- Ralf Messerer Internet: messerer@email.tuwien.ac.at Computer Center forwarded to: rm@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at Vienna University of Technology Wiedner Hauptstrasse 8-10 Voice: +58 801/5505 A-1040 Vienna, Austria/Europe Fax: +58 74 211 From reedv@rpi.edu Sat Feb 19 17:55:18 1994 Received: from rpi.edu by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP id AA10583; Sat, 19 Feb 1994 22:55:21 -0500 Received: from client.its.rpi.edu (goya.its.rpi.edu) by rpi.edu (4.1/SMHUB41); id AA28467; Sat, 19 Feb 94 22:55:20 EST for riscy@sunsite.unc.edu From: Received: by client.its.rpi.edu (4.1/SUB16); id AA05774; Sat, 19 Feb 94 22:55:18 EST for riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Date: Sat, 19 Feb 94 22:55:18 EST Message-Id: <9402200355.AA05774@client.its.rpi.edu> To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu From reedv@rpi.edu Sun Feb 20 13:28:23 1994 Received: from rpi.edu by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP id AA18354; Sun, 20 Feb 1994 18:28:26 -0500 Received: from client.its.rpi.edu (goya.its.rpi.edu) by rpi.edu (4.1/SMHUB41); id AA05843; Sun, 20 Feb 94 18:28:25 EST for riscy@sunsite.unc.edu From: Received: by client.its.rpi.edu (4.1/SUB16); id AA19069; Sun, 20 Feb 94 18:28:23 EST for riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Date: Sun, 20 Feb 94 18:28:23 EST Message-Id: <9402202328.AA19069@client.its.rpi.edu> To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Subject: Ping... Awful quiet out there. What's goin' on? Hey Bill, did you mail those packets ye yet? Vince Reed reedv@rpi.edu (formerly vince@cardiothoracic.ucsf.edu) From VIGNANI%MSIE03%CRFV2@CSPCLU.CSP.IT Wed Feb 23 12:05:00 1994 Received: from CSPSRV.CSP.IT ([130.192.68.5]) by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP id AA16602; Wed, 23 Feb 1994 07:12:51 -0500 Received: from DECNET-MAIL by CSP.IT (PMDF #12306) id <01H9835J5V1C0004GW@CSP.IT>; Wed, 23 Feb 1994 12:05 GMT Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 12:05 GMT From: VIGNANI%MSIE03%CRFV2@CSPCLU.CSP.IT Subject: Digital EB66 board To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Message-Id: <01H9835J5V1C0004GW@CSP.IT> X-Envelope-To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu X-Vms-To: inet"riscy@sunsite.unc.edu" I received from Digital the specs for the EB66 board. It will ship in May and cost $5000. In the meantime, Intel is going 64-bit and multiprocessor. Some folks are already designing a dual-100Mhz Pentium board to be introduced by the end of the year. Any comments? Alberto Vignani From reedv@rpi.edu Wed Feb 23 07:14:23 1994 Received: from rpi.edu by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP id AA02117; Wed, 23 Feb 1994 14:55:15 -0500 Received: from client.its.rpi.edu (vccsouth09.its.rpi.edu) by rpi.edu (4.1/SMHUB41); id AA04587; Wed, 23 Feb 94 12:14:25 EST for riscy@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Received: by client.its.rpi.edu (4.1/SUB16); id AA05346; Wed, 23 Feb 94 12:14:25 EST for riscy@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu From: reedv@rpi.edu (Vince Reed -- "Sub Zero" ) Message-Id: <9402231214.ZM5344@vccsouth09.its.rpi.edu> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 12:14:23 -0500 In-Reply-To: VIGNANI%MSIE03%CRFV2@CSPCLU.CSP.IT "Digital EB66 board" (Feb 23, 7:13am) References: <01H9835J5V1C0004GW@CSP.IT> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (2.1.5 20sep93) To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Subject: Re: Digital EB66 board There isn't any MP support in Linux either. I bet it's harder to move Linux to MP than it is to port to another arch..., but I don't know for sure. And if your gonna go MP, it makes sense to go mutlithreaded too. Vince From kent@tifsim.pac.sc.ti.com Wed Feb 23 08:17:10 1994 Received: from lobby.ti.com by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP id AA06513; Wed, 23 Feb 1994 15:22:13 -0500 Received: from tifsim.pac.sc.ti.com ([128.247.112.4]) by lobby.ti.com with SMTP (5.65c/LAI-3.2) id AA26587; Wed, 23 Feb 1994 14:19:42 -0600 Received: by tifsim.pac.sc.ti.com (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA18419; Wed, 23 Feb 94 14:14:36 -0600 From: kent@tifsim.pac.sc.ti.com (Russell Kent) Received: by juliet.pac.sc.ti.com id ; Wed, 23 Feb 94 14:17:11 CST Message-Id: <9402232017.AA23218@juliet.pac.sc.ti.com> Subject: DEC 21066 vs. 21068 To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 14:17:10 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1171 Ralf Messerer (rm@eacpc4.tuwien.ac.at) wrote on 18 Feb 1994: [ re-formatted the tables ] Quantity: 1-24 25-99 >100 DECchip 21066 Alpha microprocessor $704 $633 $528 DECchip 21040 LAN controller 42 38 31 DECchip 21068 Alpha microprocessor 404 364 303 > DEC will bring out a NoName Borad for OEM. The price will be > under 500$. DEC will start with the first samples in May > and volume quantities in June. The board have the same features > like evaluation board, but there is no Ehternetcotroller 21040. > I think we will not be able to build a board so cheap. Ralf, Does this board have a 21066 on it for the ~$500 price? If yes, then I don't understand DEC's pricing ($528 for the chip or ~$500 for a board _with_ chip??). If no, then system cost goes up much faster: ~$500 + $528 + VRAM + RAMDAC + DRAM + ... instead of: ~$500 + VRAM + RAMDAC + DRAM + ... Russell Kent -- Texas Instruments rkent@lobby.ti.com -or- PO Box 655012 M/S 3624 kent@tifsim.pac.sc.ti.com Dallas, TX 75265 Voice: (214) 917-2285 FAX: (214) 917-5112 From tthorn%hof@hof.daimi.aau.dk Thu Feb 24 05:04:30 1994 Received: from hof (hof.daimi.aau.dk) by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP id AA18753; Thu, 24 Feb 1994 05:04:30 -0500 Received: by hof (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #14) id m0pZd1O-000IBbC; Thu, 24 Feb 94 11:10 MET Message-Id: Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 11:10 MET From: tthorn%hof@hof.daimi.aau.dk (Tommy Thorn) To: VIGNANI%MSIE03%CRFV2@CSPCLU.CSP.IT Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Digital EB66 board In-Reply-To: <01H9835J5V1C0004GW@CSP.IT> References: <01H9835J5V1C0004GW@CSP.IT> Reply-To: Tommy.Thorn@daimi.aau.dk VIGNANI%MSIE03%CRFV2@CSPCLU.CSP.IT writes: > I received from Digital the specs for the EB66 board. It will ship > in May and cost $5000. > In the meantime, Intel is going 64-bit and multiprocessor. Some > folks are already designing a dual-100Mhz Pentium board to be > introduced by the end of the year. > Any comments? 1. The riscy project originally existed, becourse people couldn't stomac the Intel Architechture. They wanted a nice RISC processor without the braindamage from years ago. 2. So, somebody is designing a dual-100Mhz Pentium board, so what? Other people are designing hypercubes with i860 or alphas, which btw is aviable *today*, unlike 100Mhz Pentium chips. Nobody expects the processor race to end in our lifetime, so by the time we see 100Mhz Pentiums, HP, Sun, Mips, Dec, IBM, etc. are likely to have faster versions of their processors as well. 3. I think the riscy project has changed. Originally, it was the aim to *build* a *cheap* risc motherboard. Now, we just want a cheap risc motherboard, we don't necessarily want to build it ourselves. Once enough of us gets a board, we'll start discussion porting. So far, this list hasn't produced any result, but has more served as a forum for discussion (which is fine by me, btw) our common interest, risc architectures. Well, this was my comments anyway. I guess it all comes down to: I don't care what intel produces as long as they are still using the x86 ISA. /Tommy From amoss@cs.huji.ac.il Thu Feb 24 16:49:46 1994 Received: from cs.huji.ac.il by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP id AA27519; Thu, 24 Feb 1994 07:49:53 -0500 Received: from picton.cs.huji.ac.il by cs.huji.ac.il with SMTP id AA21011 (5.65c/HUJI 4.153 for ); Thu, 24 Feb 1994 14:49:48 +0200 Received: from localhost by picton.cs.huji.ac.il with SMTP id AA19677 (5.65c/HUJI 4.1 for riscy@sunsite.unc.edu); Thu, 24 Feb 1994 14:49:47 +0200 Message-Id: <199402241249.AA19677@picton.cs.huji.ac.il> To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Subject: Re: Digital EB66 board In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 24 Feb 1994 05:07:24 -0500 . From: Amos Shapira Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 14:49:46 +0200 Sender: amoss@CS.HUJI.AC.IL In message tthorn%hof@hof.daimi.aau.dk write: |Well, this was my comments anyway. I guess it all comes down to: |I don't care what intel produces as long as they are still using |the x86 ISA. I fully concure with everything Tommy said. We keep forgeting that we want a board at last and that we (at least me and several others on the list) don't want it to be intel-based. | |/Tommy Cheers, p.s. note the .sig --Amos --Amos Shapira (Jumper Extraordinaire) | "It is not possible both to C.S. System Group, Hebrew University, | understandand appreciate Intel Jerusalem 91904, ISRAEL | technology" amoss@cs.huji.ac.il | -- Henry Spencer From karhinen@metla.fi Thu Feb 24 19:17:58 1994 Received: from tuija.metla.fi by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP id AA12076; Thu, 24 Feb 1994 10:18:10 -0500 Received: from umber.metla.fi by tuija.metla.fi with SMTP id AA05165 (5.65c8+/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Thu, 24 Feb 1994 17:17:58 +0200 Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 17:17:58 +0200 Message-Id: <199402241517.AA05165@tuija.metla.fi> X-Sender: ekklib@palmu.metla.fi To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu From: Anssi.Karhinen@metla.fi (Anssi Karhinen) Subject: Desperate idea? X-Mailer: Hi there! I am only a software guy. I have been following this list since the R3000 days. I think that the original idea was to create a reasonably powerful Unix-machine that is joy to program. But above all it should be affordable. Now we're talking about $1000-$5000 motherboards etc... well I surely can't afford to build a machine that costs so much. Now, wouldn't the easiest & cheapest way to provide a RISC platform be a CPU card for existing PCI or VESA based PC? The card would include CPU, DRAM, bus interface and possibly L2 cache. Unix kernel and user processes would all run on the card. The PC would be used as an intelligent I/O subsystem and X-server. The programming interface between the Card and the PC could be defined cleanly in a message-passing fashion (Mach). The machine would be basically a heterogenous asymmetric multiprocessor. All the programming and OS-stuff would happen in the clean RISC environment, only device drivers and X-server would be implemented in the revolting PC-environment. The benefits I can think of are: -there exist plenty of public domain device drivers for PC motherboards (for example Linux drivers) -X-servers for PC:s exist -All ISA-, VESA- or PCI-cards would work because they would operate in true Intel environment. -Hardware related work would be minimized, and we could concentrate on the software developement, that can be done by more people than hardware hacking. -I/O would be quite efficient because all PC-RAM could be utilized for buffers and X-window backup storage etc... -existing PC-hardware could be utilized. The possible drawbacks are: -Unpleasent developement environment for device drivers. -the bus interface could be a bottleneck for some applications. I know these kind of cards have existed. An old 68000 card from Sritek for PC-XT come to mind. It was very fast in its time. I have seen a Sparc-2 card for PC too. And some i860 cards exist too. They all use ISA bus though. Cheers! Anssi Karhinen From rei2!tsprad@uunet.uu.net Thu Feb 24 14:33:36 1994 Received: from relay2.UU.NET by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP id AA27666; Thu, 24 Feb 1994 22:24:57 -0500 Received: from uucp3.uu.net by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AAwesj25922; Thu, 24 Feb 94 22:24:55 -0500 Received: from rei2.UUCP by uucp3.uu.net with UUCP/RMAIL ; Thu, 24 Feb 1994 22:24:55 -0500 Received: by rei.com (5.4.2/5.40/1.0) id AA20216; Thu, 24 Feb 1994 20:33:39 -0600 From: rei2!tsprad@uunet.uu.net (6692) Message-Id: <9402250233.AA20216@rei.com> Subject: Re: Desperate idea? To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 20:33:36 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <9402241622.AA16691@rei.com> from "UUCP Login" at Feb 24, 94 10:22:28 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL13] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2656 > I have been following this list since the R3000 days. I think that > the original idea was to create a reasonably powerful Unix-machine > that is joy to program. But above all it should be affordable. > > Now we're talking about $1000-$5000 motherboards etc... well I surely > can't afford to build a machine that costs so much. If what you want is affordable, maybe the answer is to go back to the original idea, to design our own based on the IDT 3081. > Now, wouldn't the easiest & cheapest way to provide a RISC platform > be a CPU card for existing PCI or VESA based PC? The easiest and _certainly_ the cheapest way to provide a RISC platform is to buy one from SUN or DEC or SGI. What in the world makes you think you can compete with those guys on cost? Half a dozen amateurs spread out around the world, buying parts in quantity 10 or 20? You'll pay more for _connectors_ than all the obscene profits that DEC makes on a system, that you'll be avoiding. > All the programming and OS-stuff would happen in the clean > RISC environment, only device drivers and X-server would be > implemented in the revolting PC-environment. Cheaper yet, buy a 486 PC. All the programming and OS-stuff would happen in the clean Standard C environment, only device drivers and X-server would be implemented in the revolting PC-environment. Look, I'm not singling out anyone for criticism, and I'm certainly not a big fan of 486 PCs. But if _cheap_ is what you want, I really think you'll be disapointed again, just as you all were when Andy Busse announced Waldorf's costs for his board. I originally signed onto this mailing list because I thought some people wanted to _design_our_own_ main board and put it under copyleft so everyone would have access to complete documentation, and so anyone could manufacture it, and so anyone could improve it, as long as they kept it under copyleft. I never imagined it would be cheap, but I figured it might not be completely unreasonable if we kept realistic goals. I've continued to lurk here, keeping my peace, but I pretty much lost interest when the discussion shifted from 32-bit R3000's to 64-bit pie-in-the-sky, because I figured the probability of anything actually being built went from 1 chance in 10 to 1 in 100, or less. Right now I'm really thinking I shouldn't send this, but just stay quiet, or un-subscribe. -- Ted Spradley tsprad@rei.com Opinions are mine, not theirs. Information tends to drive out knowledge. [...] many people cannot tell the difference between information and knowledge, not to mention wisdom, which even knowledge tends sometimes to drive out. -Heinz Pagels From akix!aki@donews.cts.com Thu Feb 24 17:26:00 1994 Received: from donews.cts.com by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP id AA09920; Fri, 25 Feb 1994 09:10:22 -0500 Received: from akix by donews.cts.com with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #18) id m0pZzTj-0001PqC; Fri, 25 Feb 94 02:09 PST Received: by akix.uucp (/\==/\ Smail3.1.21.1 #21.2) id ; Fri, 25 Feb 94 01:26 PST Message-Id: Date: Fri, 25 Feb 94 01:26 PST From: aki@akix.cts.com (Aki Atoji) To: riscy@sunsite.unc.edu Subject: Re: Desperate idea? In-Reply-To: <9402250233.AA20216@rei.com> References: <9402250233.AA20216@rei.com> 6692 writes: > Look, I'm not singling out anyone for criticism, and I'm certainly > not a big fan of 486 PCs. But if _cheap_ is what you want, I really > think you'll be disapointed again, just as you all were when Andy > Busse announced Waldorf's costs for his board. > > I originally signed onto this mailing list because I thought some > people wanted to _design_our_own_ main board and put it under > copyleft so everyone would have access to complete documentation, > and so anyone could manufacture it, and so anyone could improve > it, as long as they kept it under copyleft. > > I never imagined it would be cheap, but I figured it might not be > completely unreasonable if we kept realistic goals. I've continued > to lurk here, keeping my peace, but I pretty much lost interest when > the discussion shifted from 32-bit R3000's to 64-bit pie-in-the-sky, > because I figured the probability of anything actually being built > went from 1 chance in 10 to 1 in 100, or less. I must say I share this sentiment. It seems that somewhere along the line, the focus shifted from a design with reasonable hardware with reasonable cost that was to be copylefted, to 'this would be neat if we could do (take your pick: PCI/VLB/FDDI/ISDN/megsof 0.7nS 2nd level cache/whichisthegreatest64bitCPU/pentiumsucks/etc.)' Although I'm a software type now, I've done hardware designs in the past including an i960CA-33 (that's Intel's superscalar RISC CPU) board with SCSI, and have gone through the customary part price scrutiny that's required for any commercial hardware product. Parts that run at high speed just aren't cheap. If you want gloriously fast Xstones and SPECmarks, you might as well buy the whole package (including benchmark figures) from DEC or HP. I would much prefer to see a reasonable design at a reasonable cost that is for everyone to share, tinker, improve up on in terms of both hardware and software. That goal in itself probably isn't as easy to achieve as it sounds, but it's not as bad as trying to make a 2000 SPECmark machine yourself. I agree that if cheap is what you want, you can get it down at your local computer store. To be honest, an ISA bus PC is as close to public domain computer design as you get these days. As for myself, I have i960 and 29K setup right here at home that I tinker with. They were from my embedded programming/design days, and none are suited for running general purpose Unix-like kernel. Now, I would really love to get my hands on something like a 3081 or AM29030 board with built in SCSI, Ethernet, serial/parallel ports and a couple of ISA slots for video and other things. No, this isn't your super-fast workstation killer. It probably won't score very well on SPECmark neither. Worse yet, it'll probably cost a few hundred bucks, excluding memory. What's on it isn't much more than the eval boards you can buy from IDT or LSI Logic or AMD. But that little extra such as SCSI, ethernet and video are a real pain to have to wirewrap and write drivers for myself. But then, if such a design existed, then I can try a lot of things that I always would have liked to do, and some of it people wouldn't mind playing with themselves. Now, if any of you have a 3081 or 29030 eval boards laying about, please let me know. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Aki Atoji Unix, X, Networking, Japanese and Embedded Consulting aki@akix.cts.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------